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wow so i just saw on the news that theres an investigation over crazy anti-Islam guy at Enloe. They said the school system requested an apology to enloe students and that ***** be disciplined. (Don't know if i spelled ***** right)
Anonymous
11:07:00 PM
Published by
sithgirl
Tags: drama, Enloe legends, popular post, religion, tolerance, TV
22 comments:
yeah i always get ***** wrong
damn asterisks
So, basically, you're saying that if we brought in the Grand Wizard, that would be OK, because those prejudices exist in the real world, and we shouldn't be sheltered from it?
'Cause that's what I'm hearing.
I think that it was bad to bring anti-Islam guy to Enloe, but that it was a bit overblown and such. Yes, it was prejudice, and yes, it was bad and somewhat upsetting and blatantly disrespectful towards Muslims, but do you know anyone that actually listened to the guy or believed him?
It's not only on CNN, Fox News, NPR, The front page of the N&O, but apparently on INTERNATIONAL NEWS.
The story has reached Muslim countries because of the person who contacted the Muslim relations group.
Rahi, don't bring in the KKK.
This post is already doomed to get Godwin's-Law-ed before you know it; don't extend it to other bad analogies.
Rashi's point about the KKK is entirely valid. At least according to this news source. Seriously. The local newspaper did that. On the front page? But then again, the local newspaper hates Enloe, so I'm not terribly surprised.
Dr. Cochran has in fact invited the Muslim organization who filed the complaint to come organize a series of presentations. I honestly think this is the best solution. Then they'd see how little attention gets paid to any religion based presentation. Because, quite honestly, the majority of Enloe is apathetic about religion in general.
This got blown way out of proportion. I don't need the same basic article multiple times (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). FOXNews had an interesting take, but I found it to be ridiculous and misquoted.
And for an attempt at balance, I like the little jab at the end of this one.
My own personal disbelief at this situation stems from the fact that everyone took the speaker seriously. Having read the pamphlet, I'm concerned that more people didn't just laugh in the guy's face.
Sithgirl, I think you are completely wrong.
This guy has sincere hatred; just looking at his website is plenty of proof that his agenda is completely anti-Islam. It's the responsibility of a teacher to keep CURRICULAR OR DURING-THE-SCHOOL-DAY assignments free from that sort of prejudice.
The best solution is to take extreme disciplinary action against ****. He has pushed it for too long. I don't buy for one second, given his history, that this wasn't part of his agenda of Christian fundamentalism; that's despite whatever excuses he may have to the contrary.
Allowing religious fundamentalism to pervade our schools can't be tolerated in any way. Allowing an oppositely minded group is not enough. The presentation should have been stopped by the afternoon once Esco knew what the guy was doing. Why did he allow it to continue?
gah
To address Tinted's remarks:
***** said he didn't see the website. I can honestly believe him about that. I don't think he checks sources for anything. As far as the preface to presentation goes, he was introduced as someone who was going to talk about his experiences as a converted Christian in Egypt.
Towards *****'s responsibility about keeping assignments free from prejudice, I don't think that's valid. I think we need to read more prejudiced literature in classes so students can become more aware of what exists outside our nice little Enloe-bubble. Crazy people exist. Fanatics exist. Deal with it. We read sexist literature all the time in classes, and I don't see even the most ardent of feminists get up in arms about it.
About previous incidents with *****, they really aren't on par. This is obviously religious - he's not gotten in trouble for that before. A racist remark, yes. A sexist remark, probably. But not religion. He has an incident at least once a year. We all brush it off - at this point, it is part of the "Enloe experience" that he will do something crazy and maybe inappropriate. We laugh, because he is ridiculous, and the entire school knows that.
I do agree that religious fundamentalism shouldn't be taught in schools. However, disallowing religious views to be talked about and studied in an academic manner would not be appropriate either.
I'd really like someone who actually attended any of the presentations to say something, because right now, the entire school is in an fervor over a thing most people have no connection to at all. The majority of the students who are upset and angered by this aren't even Muslim. They are white liberals who are so open-minded that their minds have actually closed.
The couple of Muslim kids I know saw excerpts from the pamphlet, or the pamphlet in its entirety, and just laughed. Most pointed out that for the Islamic faith, the Old and New Testaments are part of their religion. And that both the Bible and the Koran have passages saying to beat wives.
This is serious, but I think there should be more student dialogs where people listen to one another rather than the large amount of angry parents and local/national/international news butting in. This should have just been dealt with by the school. Especially considering the county is the one who made the guest speaker policy so lax that this guy got to speak in the first place.
i really just loved how CBN used themselves as a source.
If I don't address something here, it means I agreed with what you said, Sithgirl:
Towards *****'s responsibility about keeping assignments free from prejudice, I don't think that's valid. I think we need to read more prejudiced literature in classes so students can become more aware of what exists outside our nice little Enloe-bubble. Crazy people exist. Fanatics exist. Deal with it. We read sexist literature all the time in classes, and I don't see even the most ardent of feminists get up in arms about it.
Absolutely not. Of course prejudice exists, fanatics exist, etc. But I am sure you would concede that's not a reason to allow them to speak at a group of students to promote their agenda. It's distracting (clearly that can be seen in this issue), unfair, and hurtful. I can deal with it, but I don't have to deal with it at public school.
I do agree that religious fundamentalism shouldn't be taught in schools. However, disallowing religious views to be talked about and studied in an academic manner would not be appropriate either.
Okay, I actually agree here with what you're saying but I don't think it's relevant here at all.
I'd really like someone who actually attended any of the presentations to say something, because right now, the entire school is in an fervor over a thing most people have no connection to at all. The majority of the students who are upset and angered by this aren't even Muslim. They are white liberals who are so open-minded that their minds have actually closed.
The couple of Muslim kids I know saw excerpts from the pamphlet, or the pamphlet in its entirety, and just laughed. Most pointed out that for the Islamic faith, the Old and New Testaments are part of their religion. And that both the Bible and the Koran have passages saying to beat wives.
Sure, to some kids maybe this is a joke. But to others it's unfair discrimination (I think the fact that these parents and organizations got involved is proof of that). I would disagree that no one has a connection. Just because you weren't there DOES NOT mean you can't know what happened. Is that what you're trying to say? This should be an issue of importance for our entire school.
This should have just been dealt with by the school.
Well I just said it should be important for our entire school, but we won't kid ourselves and say it is. Nothing would have been done, and Mr. **** would have been free to, in my opinion, continue on with his religious obsession in a venue where they have no place.
Well,
Sithgirl probably set it better than I care to attempt to, but...
I think this was blown a little bit out of proportion.
I think that what happened certainly should not be repeated under any circumstances.
I agree that people need to be exposed to extremists. Much of the world thinks way he does (I would tend to believe that beliefs like his are part of the reason so much violence exists in the world), and while we "know" that such hatred exists and that discrimination still exists, to actually have a man come before you and seriously tell you that he actually believes these things is a powerful statement.
That said, I feel it came as sort of an ambush to people. I highly doubt anyone was harmed much by his presentation, but I would say that if people like him are allowed to come with as little previous knowledge of his views as there were, it would open up the possiblity of extreme abuse.
As to the argument that the Grand Wizard might come in: why not? These people exist, we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand.
My problem is is that I feel it needs to be clearly stated to the students the speakers stance before hand (he's not just a christian or an anti-islam speaker, he's a little bit more), and it needs to be stated clearly that students do not have to attend if they do not wish to. Seeing these views is valuable, but they should not be pushed on anyone in any way.
Frankly, I usually love esco's stunts and think people blow them way out of proportion (and his kids are probably some of the best christians, and in that I mean good people as well, I've ever met. I'm just saying a man who raises them can't be as bad as people paint him)
anyways, This one went a little far...probably a lot far, but I would take his word that he didn't really know what the guy was going to do. He probably could have handled it better, but we have to realize that it is rude in the upmost degree to invite a speaker and then tell him he can't speak...still, he could have handled it better.
I like that the administration is changing its policy on speakers, and I like that esco got a reprimand, but I don't think he should be severely punished and I don't think this should be an international scandal.
I like that it is a mistake that can be learned from, and I like that things (at least it seems) are changing.
I dislike the idea that what this man has to say should bar him from speaking to students. It just needs to be done in a less SNEAK ATTACK manner.
Oh, sorry:
Clarification on "why not the Grand Wizard."
I feel he probably shouldn't be invited because I sense that he's a fairly dramatic fellow. He would probably cause a ruckuss and...react adversely to the presence of black students (needless to say the likely backlash of students against him).
It's not his views, but rather how they would be presented that I think is truly the problem.
From what I hear the man was fairly well behaved, and was lecturing, not preaching.
I feel if it is a calm, quiet ordeal with plenty previous warnings and completely voluntary, it's probably okay.
Speaking as a person who actually saw the presentation, vouching for Mr. ****:
During the period that I attended, he continually asked Mr. Solomon if he wanted to speak about his personal experiences in Egypt; it was obvious that Mr. **** had been under the impression that this man was planning on telling his personal story - not proselytizing, not spreading radical beliefs.
I believe him completely when he says he wasn't aware of Mr. Solomon's website.
Don't blame our teacher for this. Truly, blame can't be placed on any one person at all.
I just don't understand that argument of PChis and Sithgirl that just because these people exist that we should be exposed to them!
Sex criminals and murderers exist, are we going to let them come in and talk about the thrill of the crime? Is that a viewpoint we need to be exposed to?
All of these things may have a place, but not at school.
Honestly, yes, we should hear murderers and sex criminals talk, given it's in the appropriate class (like psychology or C&E). I think anything, given context, has the potential to be a learning opportunity, even if it's not the original intent.
I honestly believe that diversity of experience makes better people. Culture and ethnicity are important, but experience is another thing entirely. People tend to forget that.
Its important to be subjected to many different views and opinions. And i think that this man had a right to his opinion I think hes kinda crazy but he never the less had the right to an opinion. The presentation of said opinion in the school should be balanced by an opposite view point like a point counterpoint thing. having an unbalanced presentation makes it seem like your promoting one view over another. Comedians never make fun of just one race at a time for the same reason. Most people i know did not take this seriously but the danger lies in those we don't know who will now think of enloes as a racist and backwards school. The media has spun it out of proportion with the headlines like the N&O's "students told to shun Muslims" hopefully this will not scar enloe in the long run.
See, the thing is that being exposed to this viewpoint isn't helpful to anyone, because it's not a valid viewpoint. All it is is hate speech.
That's not opinion. That's slander.
One point that no one has brought up is that right now, comparatively, Islam is a fairly intolerant religion. In many Islamic schools in the middle east they teach that Infidels (most of us) should be killed.
Also in Egypt, it is a capital crime for any person to convert from Islam to any other religion. In addition to that any Islamic woman who attempts to marry a christian man will usually be killed by her family, sometimes at the airport as she tries to flee the country. I personally know a muslim woman in England who married a Muslim doctor and was then was oppressed and trapped by the man and his family.
I would also remind everyone debating this issue, that there are very few Islamic countries where it is allowed for women to go without a veil. Also Women in most Islamic countries are not educated or allowed basic rights.
Islam in its current form is more comparable to Christianity of the 13th and 14th centuries than any current modern world religion. In most Islamic countries (not all) the oppression of women is supported.
(note: before you say it, i'm not saying that all muslims are intolerant, but based on the evidence of september 11th, and numerous Islamic Terrorist organizations waging a Jihad against the Western World, and the several fundamentalist islamic regimes in the world, i base my claim)
I also feel that it is right for us to call the speaker's presentation what it was: hate speech. But as shown by the outrage throughout Enloe, we all know that it was hate speech, and we're all calling it as such. And being exposed to that, recognizing it, and calling it, is a more valuable and educational experience than any other more 'tolerant' speaker could provide. It is an experience that I believe not only will everyone in Mr.****'s classes carry with them through to their adult days, but one that almost everyone at Enloe will remember.
Personally I think Mr. *** should be rewarded for providing such a stimulating moral and ethical debate to Enloe.
So, you think Esco should be awarded for putting a black mark on Enloe?
Yeah, there's some good positive reinforcement.
Esco didn't put the black mark on Enloe. The blame for that belongs to:
- The naive freshmen and sophomores who couldn't handle being openminded
- The parents who didn't bother to check for facts before calling media and activist organizations
- The activist organizations who instigated the wave of villainous media aimed at Enloe while at the same time calling for dialogue and open understanding
- The media for their slant with the story
Esco invited the speaker. Blame for the situation that ensued is not constrained to him.
Don't pin panic/hysteria blame on freshmen and sophomores only. It was upperclassmen and faculty, too.
^ You're right. I just used "freshmen/sophomores" as the example because that's who the news articles kept quoting.
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