Dang. I don't check the tangst for a day, and I've missed so much. And then I comment on the old posts, and no one ever reads them again...sad. I guess you have to do this thing religiously, or not at all.
Secondly....I feel like maybe 1/4 of tangsters are gay? Um...is this correct? Maybe the gay ones just post alot? Hm. I don't really know, but all this about "hey, it's great you're coming out and all"...mmm, lemme just put something out there.
I realize that Enloe is probably the most liberal school in the Wake County area. However, that does not mean that every student agrees with homosexuality, or even thinks it's ok. I am one of the students who strongly disagrees with it.
Usually, I find strong resistance to my beliefs at Enloe, however I always state them because I think it's important to hear all sides of things. So, because there has been recent posts about guys w/ guys etc...and possibly someone coming out? I'm not sure, apparently the tangsters know this kid and I really am just really really lost, so...
But I just wanted to put it out there-don't get stuck in your little world where everything is good, and everything is right, including coming out and deciding you're homosexual. That's a false world right there and eventually, you'll have a run in with reality.
I understand that we want to support everyone on tangst and all, and I'm not degrading whoever may be gay, or what have you. However, I just don't want the impression to be that everyone is fine with decisions like that. Because that is simply not the truth.
(P.S. I know this post will probably get a lot of crazed liberal responses....however, I would like to ask that you keep the criticism polite, if anything. Thanks anyway.)
Anonymous
12:43:34 AM
75 comments:
1. You don't have to do this religiously... just maybe comment on the newer posts?
2. Uh, I doubt that 1/4 of the posters are gay. The whole support thing is just that a lot of us know the kid and really, your opinion of someone shouldn't change just because they come out. They're still the same person as they were before, it's just that more is known about them.
3. Yes, I'm pretty sure that Enloe is the most liberal school in Wake County. But I don't think that's hard to do.
4. Trust me, this guy isn't stuck in a little world were everything is good. If you knew how much he struggles with this whole thing, you wouldn't have said that. He knows how much support he doesn't have when it comes to everyone outside this community.
5. No one "decides" to be homosexual. If you actually believe that I feel sorry for you in your obvious state of ignorance. But I guess that's your decision.
P.S. I wouldn't have written a response to this, but then you had to go and write out that nice bit about "crazed liberal responses." I'll admit it, I was provoked. You're a dumb shit for writing that and then asking us to "keep the criticism polite." I hope you get real flamers responding to this now.
Original poster, I got a kick out of how you threw so many stones with that one post, but then asked people to be kind and polite to you.
I agree entirely with Heather. You apparently don't understand the situation with the most recent poster that meets your argument.
I'm pretty neutral when it comes to sexuality. It's an individual assessment, not a decision, and not a choice. That being said, I'm straight.
Back to your post, however. Don't fear. There are no hard numbers on the quantity of homosexual people who post/view this site. The visiting/posting population is under 25%, to my knowledge, so your homophobic tendancies may rest.
Continuing to address this though, if you feel uncomfortable here for one reason or another, keep in mind that typing the url or clicking the link is your choice. Last I checked, Heather's payroll doesn't include enforcers and violent hitmen.
I think your post was rather long winded. You should have contained your complaint to a simple tangst, such as "I'm not comfortable with homosexuality" or "I think gay people aren't realistic," instead of a rather offensive and extraneous diatribe.
Anyway, its 2:30 in the morning, and I have an AP Environmental Science test to fail in hours. I just couldn't let this sit without responding.
i hate how every time someone feels that they can open up about themself and be comfortable, someone like you has to come a ruin it with senseless negativity and ignorance.
also, keep in mind that 10% of the population is gay, so perhaps you should get used to it. at least try to be more tolerant.
I just want to say that I agree with the original poster.
At least.... I think I do.
I don't know if I agree with homosexuality, or think it's okay. I probably don't. I mean, I think lesbians are gross? That's kind of hypocritical right?
Whether it's right, or whether it's wrong, it feels damn good to me. I wish I was sure, it would make my life a whole lot easier.... but I'm not.
A note about people "deciding" to be homosexual: I'm not sure how sithgirl or the original poster either one has an opinion about this, because I sure don't know. I mean, logically this isn't an easy or desirable thing to "decide to be"... but then neither is a person who take 6 AP classes.
On the other hand, it isn't biologically feasible for homosexuality to be genetic, and unlikely that it's a common mutation... so it is a decision? Is it environmental?
I have no clue, and that sums up my entire response.
I think the original poster's statements about not checking tangst enough was just an introduction/way to get people to read his or her prior comments? So I have nothing to say about that.
On a lighter note, if 1/4th of the posters on her really are gay... behind the east gym, 2:15?
^
(only kidding, original poster. I'll tone it down, or something.)
Also, Betty, I'd like to point out:
In a school like Enloe (and consequently on a site like Tangst) the original poster is opening up and sharing how he or she feels.
Don't ruin that with senseless negativity.
Poster, honestly...
Is this your new world order coming any day now? "Don't get stuck in your little world where everything is good, and everything is right, including coming out and deciding ... blah blah blah. Blah blah false world right there and eventually, you'll have a run in with reality."
Speaking of reality, have you been there lately?
I hear that boys sometimes like other boys. Maybe we should stay away from reality after all.
Saying homosexuality is flat-out wrong is on the list of "Most Close-minded Things EVER said on Tangst." So congratulations.
What if someone came up to you and said "You know what? Gay is the way of the future. Het is just so last half-century. Why don't you change your mind about who your body is physically attracted to?"
The only reason you religious hegemonists get away with anything is that you're the majority and the ones you're oppressing, like gays, are in the minority.
Call me a crazy liberal if you will. But at least I fit into the American system somewhere. With your troglodytic insensitivity, the best option for you is emigration.
I apologize to the admins and other contributors on this site.
haha, I LOVE the term "closed minded," because the only way you can be open minded is to accept closed minded people, therefore the use of the word is almost always hypocritical.
That being said you probably should tone it down a bit if you'd like a "polite" debate on that.
I'll agree that when I see two guys kissing the first reaction is a buzzer in my mind saying WRONG, but when I think about it logically I completely accept gay people.
I'd ALSO like to point out that at this point it's looking like homosexuality isn't a choice, but we really don't know all that much about it. How much is genetic, how much is environmental, chance, decision? Personally it makes sense to me for it to be purely genetic if you think about males and females as complete opposites with black and white and the fact that gene could just flip one way or another, BUT as we are currently discovering there are many shades of gray to the gender issue, so it's a lot more complicated.
I'm sorry that you posted like you did, because I think the whole being "uncomfortable" with gay people is a completely valid viewpoint. I mean, creating false idles is wrong, killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, to some people being gay is wrong. I respect people with faith like that in their religion, namely because I don't think I'll ever be able to understand faith. I'm sorry because you just became the embodiment of the "crazy conservatives" that all not many people like. Nothing gets changed by insulting someone else, which is the reason I despise the gay parades with chants like "we're here we're queer get used to it," but that's another story.
BASICALLY I don't like extremists, if you can tell from the ramble.
Even for someone to say something as silly as was said on this post, I agree with pchis that we should definitely keep it polite.
One of the points of Tangst, as I see it, is accepting all kinds of people. Even the extremists.
Pchis, though, one thing at least.
(I don't really even want to address the post itself.) Just because you're uncomfortable with something doesn't make it wrong. (I know that isn't what you're saying, but I thought the point needed to be made.)
Original poster: Yes, 1/4 of the posters are gay. In fact, we're all gay. 100%. 120%, even. Gay gay gay. We're here we're queer get used to it.
Ah, by ignoring what I said, PChis, you made me feel like one of the gay parade people.
I hate them too! I swear, haha.
Last thing I have to say on the subject... maybe?
[Original Poster here] and first of all I would like to apologize for making my first post sound like I was victimizing someone and saying they were a horrible person, etc, anything like that because that was certainly not the intention.
The intention was to say NOT that I am uncomfortable with homosexuality, but I strongly believe that it is wrong. They are very different concepts.
Also, I'd like to comment specifically to the poster that said this:
i hate how every time someone feels that they can open up about themself and be comfortable, someone like you has to come a ruin it with senseless negativity and ignorance.
also, keep in mind that 10% of the population is gay, so perhaps you should get used to it.
Tinted Fragipan already kind of said this, but I wanted to clarify. Ok, someone opening up on here about being gay, same thing as me opening up about how I feel about it. I was frustrated when I wrote that, partly because I felt very outnumbered in my belief (which, does tend to be true, especially after reading the comments) and partly just because it was late the night before exams. Ok, so it definitely came on strong. But some of it was definitely true.
Also, if you didn't agree with something, but it was happening to "10% of the population", would you just "get used to it"? Put it into context. I'm not going to "get used to it". I don't have to say rude things, or victimize people, but i WILL say that I don't agree, and that is it wrong. To anyone, anywhere and anything that's around. Thank you very much.
Also, one more thing. Not accepting my "closed-minded" beliefs, is not being open-minded yourself.
And, the person who said that being gay is not a choice, I challenge you to research that one. Because lemme tell you how they're really no redeeming proof either way. But thanks for telling me I've obviously ignorant because of as statement just as unproveable.
Saying homosexuality is flat out wrong is not closed-mind NOT been raised to believe by my parents who are also in the Ku Kluz Klan and shoot gays at night. It is one that I have thought about, researched, prayed about, and talked about with others very extensively. Just because it is an uncommon belief, does not make it "closed-minded". Closed minded is when someone doesn't accept that there are beliefs other than theirs, and that is not my problem. I am very aware that there are other beliefs, and I recognize that they are quite valid to the specific believer. I just don't agree with them, even if they make perfect sense to the individual people. Therefore, not closed-minded. Just believe differently than most Enloe students/tangsters.
I think that is all, sorry for being so long-winded.
Homosexuality. Wrong. I hate that, so, so much.
The fact that people can take something as silly as sexuality and turn it into a judgement and an uncomfortable situation almost makes me sad. It doesn't -really- matter, and it doesn't affect you (original poster). Sure, it can be an awkward thing to see sometimes, and it make give off "wrong" vibe, but I personally believe that people can't choose their sexuality.
Reality? People are different.
Hate is such a strong word.
But love is such a strong word, too.
So which one should you use?
I'm not going to address the post specifically (sorry, Original Poster), because enough people have done that already.
I'm addressing the comments this post has received.
At Enloe, we preach that we're open-minded and liberal and accepting and diverse. But as these responses have proven, "diverse" means that we only accept the outcasts, never the majority. And obviously, "open-minded" means we're open to anyone who claims to be open.
I thought that Tangst was a collection of some of the better minds at Enloe (and elsewhere) - the fact that they respect this anonymous format and the importance of it is proof. But maybe I'm wrong.
Honestly, I've always believed that the point of this site was to release one's feelings/situations/random thoughts, and to receive some feedback and advice.
I never thought it was a huge excuse to say rude and hateful things, just because you're anonymous.
Anonymity works two ways, and the comments received on this post are an astounding example of how it can be used for brutality and carelessness.
You can be tolerant and open minded and still consider a poster a jackass.
People judge others every day. Anonymity doesn't change that. However, we do (I think so, at least) respect the opinions expressed. We may have our own judgement, but we respect the right to display and air them.
let me first make it clear that i am straight, and so therefore unbiased
someone, i forget who it was, said that homosexuality is OBVIOUSLY a choice because people make other choices that don't make sense like taking 6 AP classes right?
there is a staggering difference between the two examples. taking 6 AP classes, though difficult in the short-term, has many long-term benefits (looks good on college apps, greater knowledge/intelligence, etc)
being homosexual is also VERY difficult in the short-term. however, can you think of any long-term benefits? unless you consider prejudice, insults, social stigma, and day-to-day misery to be benefits, the answer is: NO
so why would someone "make that decision"?
work on that one for awhile.
Actually, I'm not anonymous. I have no problems saying everything I said to people in real life. I've gotten into arguments with people over this stuff. Just as the original poster completely believes in the things he/she does, I do as well.
And trust me, the comment I left wasn't done carelessly. I think things through a lot before posting anything here that represents myself. I take my responsibilities seriously. I am not just another random anonymous poster who can spout whatever they want because no one will know its them.
Oh, and just because I respect someone's right to have an opinion doesn't mean I have to respect them.
I can completely relate because I think being blind is wrong. God clearly gave us light and two eyes becasue we are meant to see, and people who are blind are clearly going against his divine plan. I just feel uncomfortable when blind people go tapping along the street, but liberals and civil rights nuts would expect me to pretend that nothing's wrong and to accept them as if they were normal.
I find my point of view recieves lots of resistance, especially at a place like Enloe, but I'm going to continue to make my views heard.
^Duh! Just like blindness, -people- -don't- -choose- -to- -be- -gay-. How could you possibly blame them or say that it's "wrong". Sure it's preferable to be straight, just like it's preferable to not have allergies or not be retarted, but there's -nothing- you can do about it. We have to treat people with differences as we would like to be treated (that's what Christianity's all about right?) no matter what they look like, how they act, or who they fall in love with.
I'm sure you have fat fingers or a lazy eye or something that might make someone discriminate against you, so just understand that everyone has differences that they have no control over and accept them for who they are. We're all human and if you think you hav the right to point certain people out and call them "wrong" then I don't blame people for doing the same to you.
If I recall correctly, Jesus disregarded Leviticus. Look into that.
And geez, I'm not even Christian. If you're going to claim to be religious, get it right.
I posted a comment earlier that was much too harsh and critical. I appolgize to the original poster. We really do respect your opinions no matter how they contradict with our own. This site is about sharing and I thank you for being brave and doing just that.
Though we can inform others of our beliefs- we cannot do much to change theirs. There are gay people. I love them and accept them. If you don't, well OK then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality
I suggest you check that out even if you aren't a part of the Christian Right.
You have no right to judge gays. You also have no right to judge the original poster. Awww.
Jesus disregarded Levitical law once in the bible, the commandment to "Keep the Sabbath Holy" by allowing his disciples to cut grain for themselves,(working, in essence).
He realized that they were hungry and needed food and told them it was ok to get it.
That does not, by any means whatsoever justify that he disregared all of Leviticus, specifically the passage about homosexuality.
Apparently, you need to re-check your source.
And also, the poster who sarcastically explained that "people who are blind are clearly against God's divine plan" needs to check theirself. As funny is that is, making fun of people's beliefs, it clearly is not the same thing between being blind adn being gay. Until someone shows me scientific proof that being gay is, in fact, a genetic mutation, don't preach to me about it OBVIOUSLY not being a choice. Because really, you don't know that, do you? You can claim to know all you want, but really.
And just for the record, by choice, I obviously don't mean a choice like, hm...I want to eat pizza today instead of potatoes. I realize it is a long process of thoughts and feelings, etc. But in the end, I STILL think it is a personal choice. Not a trivial or frivolous one, but not something inborn or biological.
Then why can't someone that doesn't want to be gay choose not to be?
Even if it took a long process of thoughts and feelings, if it can be done by the mind it can be undone by the mind. Otherwise there is no point in psychotherapy, which I personally cannot believe.
Also, whomever stated that the point of sex is reproduction... I suggest you talk to someone who has had sex and maybe get them to list a few reasons why they want to do so. Or have sex yourself, and see if you want to do it again so you can risk having children again.
Just as a personal opinion (like it could be anything else.): It seems that Leviticus has a lot of straange things in it. From what I've read in the actual text and from what I've heard others talk about and quote from... not very much of Leviticus still applies.
I know the Bible is sacred and holy, but if these rules applied to the culture of the time but not our own culture, shouldn't we consider their relevance and maybe their removal?
People choose to be gay? That's news to me.
Everyone help me out and make a pros and cons list in their head, because I just can't see any benefits to "becoming" homosexual. Despite the numerous downsides, if anyone can list 5 reasons that you should be gay (especially from those that have actually experience with it) then I might just consider changing my mind.
Leviticus bans all kinds of things: tatoos, cutting your beard, short hair, eating rabbit or pig, and hilariously enough -BLIND PEOPLE-! Check Lev. 21:16-23 if you don't believe, oh ye of little faith.
That just shows that Christians don't pay any attention to this stuff, not only do they not follow them they don't even know the rules. I can't think of anything more hypocritical than using the Bible as an argument against homosexuality and then go off to eat your Christmas ham.
This is ridiculous. My parents are ministers. I asked them about Leviticus, and they were clear Jesus didn't agree with Leviticus in his teachings. Leviticus also said you coudl stone a bride if she wasn't a virgin. Come on.
So I suggest you listen to what JESUS said about homosexuality. Which was nothing at all.
Leviticus is basically one huge grouping of all those things that they used to do that you read about and say "they did WHAT?!"
No one is really a good christian if you believe in Leviticus. I guess no one really is anyway. Jesus told us to give to the poor, but unfortuantelly about half the country doesn't believe in welfare. Welcome to Hell.
So we've come to the consensus that there is no biblical backing for repudiating homosexuality and no rational reason becuase we will never know whether it is inevitable or a choice (and how can you judge or degrade someone for something they have no choice over?). Any arguments left?
whoa whoa whoa, slow down there. There is some disputed biblical backing not in Leviticus.
Even as someone who agrees with homosexuality, some of those explanations for why some passage in the bible isn't talking about homosexuality is a bit shaky...
To the idiot that says that Leviticus 21:16-23 outlaws being blind - I think you need to actually....wait....READ the verse. It says that blind people are not allowed to offer sacrifices before God, not that they are not allowed to bask in His glory or anything else. In fact, it is a commandment to not place a stumbling block before the blind.
So in other words, think before you post.
I'm glad to see everyone coming out and sharing their opinions so freely on tangst, especially on a very tentative subject. And by tentative I mean highly debated across the country and one that often leads to larger issues.
But with regard to deciding or not deciding to be gay, it's not really either, is it?
By that I mean someone who is homosexual does not consciously think in their head one day, "Hmm. I think I'll be gay. Yeah, that sounds pretty rockin." But I can't say it's genetic either, or something you're just born with.
I think it's a result of a culmination of life experiences that lead one to be more attracted to one gender than another. That's all.
And hey, maybe homosexual is actually a better way to be, but social ideas in our environments are what actually make us straight. Not our own ideas. (just a thought. didn't say i believed that.)
Not to say there aren't those who do literally decide to be gay or bi. I personally do feel like there are a good amount of people in the world who call themselves bi because they think it will increase their chances of getting laid at all. Just my perception on some people.
But whatever the reason is, and though I am not homosexual myself, I accept that others are and don't discriminate against them for it. In fact, I respect many homosexuals for having the courage to come out in a world with assholes like the original poster swarming.
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
Great job perpetuating the hypocritcal christian steryotype guys. The rest of us really appreciate it.
Original Poster, I respect the courage... or whatever it was that encouraged you to post your remarks on a public forum, despite the fact that you knew it was cause such a ruckus.
But why do you think that homosexuality is wrong?
I am admittedly a liberal, but that doesn't mean I'm salivating at the chance to get into a fight here. I'm not. I'm actually genuinely curious, because... Well...
Alright. To whoever is using the Bible as support for their argument that homosexuality is wrong? I strongly disagree with that. There's a lot in the Bible that lends itself to the ultimate conclusion that much of its content is apocryphal.
By the way, if you don't know the word "apocryphal," look it up. To whoever used the word "troglodytic"? I love you. Thank you so much for expanding my vocabulary! Let's try to use lovely life-enriching words like that whenever possible. (Despite the fact that "troglodytic" was being used in quite possibly the most insulting form possible. But hey, I like words. Sue me.)
There's that really classic e-mail going around these days -- I don't have a copy of it myself, maybe someone on Tangst does...? -- it's addressed to President Bush and asks him these questions based in religious problems. I think one is them is like, my next door neighbor complains when I perform the ritual burning of a cow in my backyard to appease the Lord Our God, but the Bible tells me I have to do it. How should I kill my neighbor? (I'm probably horrendously misquoting it, and I'm sorry if anyone's taking offense. I know how some of you love your ritual sacrifices.)
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking organized religion. Personally, I think there is a place for organized religion in society, and that place is to provide comfort and support. Not to dictate how people should live their lives. Obviously, people are going to disagree with me about that, but then again, I'm Jewish. I've had my share of people accuse me that I killed Christ.
But I digress.
Like I said, I am a liberal. I'm happy being a liberal 'cause I take the time to try to figure out WHY people retain opinions I don't agree with instead of just barring my fangs and trying to bury them in some conservative WASP's jugular. (Someone's gonna get angry that I said "WASP" now, aren't they? *sigh*) Being "open minded"? Being "close minded"? It really stopped meaning anything way back when you posted that you thought homosexuality was wrong.
Let's figure out why.
I'd prefer us not to cite the Bible anymore, if at all possible, but if that's the way it's gonna go, let's do it. I'm psyched. I'm pumped. Let the exploration in homophobia begin!
I flatter myself that I know more about the bible than anyone who's posted thusfar.
This is because I've actually read it twice. A lot of people claim to have read the bible, but I just can't believe it. It's hard work! It took me well over two years to get through it.
The biblical argument against homosexuality is overwhelming. Paul mentions it at least twice (Romans 1, 1st Corinthians), it's specifically mentioned in the old testament as a Bad Thing numerous times. If the Bible's true, then gay people are going to hell. Simple as that.
I'm worried.
and no i didnt make that last post up: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version
and for those heathens who dont have bibles
http://www.biblegateway.com
Iced T beat me with the Corinthians verse.
"We have to treat people with differences as we would like to be treated (that's what Christianity's all about right?) no matter what they look like, how they act, or who they fall in love with."
Is that someone said. That's completely wrong. Christianity, when it's based on the Bible, is about the innate wickedness of every human being. It's about making everyone act the way God wants them to act, because he's perfect and can't tolerate imperfection. Christianity based on the Bible is the most logical kind.
My extensive knowledge of the religion is not helping me with my self-esteem, haha.
Iced T beat me saying he beat me with the Corinthians verse.
(DISCLAIMER: All this Biblical talk is beginning to damage my calm, folks.)
Wow. Okay, guys. I didn't want to actively invite more Biblical arguments against homosexuality... I'm going to say it again, kids. Look up the word "apocryphal."
I have a lot of trouble understanding Biblical basis for homophobia. Are there any OTHER reasons behind it? I mean, no one genuinely says "Well, I just think homosexuality is wrong for the hell of it." ...do they?
There's got to be at least one of you out there who isn't thumping their scriptures and has a decent thought process involved here...
Are there any other arguments against homosexuality besides "it's icky" and "God said so"?
God damn you, Alex, I know what the word apocryphal means.
That's why the -Apocrypha- is considered extrabiblical. The idea is that texts included in The Holy Bible, as accepted by all the protestant denominations, are the inspired texts because they are what makes up the Bible.
It's circular logic. So is christianity. Don't say "kids" like that's gonna make your argument stronger.
I'm the one who's flippin gay here, and I feel like homosexuality is wrong. Maybe it's because I was raised that way. Maybe because something about it really is wrong. I just feel that it's inherently evil, but I can't help myself, but maybe I could, maybe I should try? I don't know....
ahh, I wish I knew.
^A prime example of why homosexuality isn't a choice. Frapigian, if it were possible (magical genie or something) would you wish yourself straight?
"It's about making everyone act the way God wants them to act, because he's perfect and can't tolerate imperfection"
Well then why did he make us imperfect in the first place?
Iced T's answer shows only very basic Christian theology:
God made us imperfect so he could make us perfect. Only some of us though. By making some people perfect who don't deserve to be it means God's a "really good guy" so all of the glory in the universe belongs to him.
God is all about glorifying himself. Because.. he's God.
So we built us with defects so we would have to go running to the manufacturer? Plus, that doesn't change the fact that we're still robot wives, just very convincing ones.
No, sorry, I was unclear Iced T.
He created all of us imperfect, but he only makes some of us perfect. That's what I meant.
I refuse to believe that I was created for the sole purpose of appeasing a lonely and love-hungry God.
I will love him only if the following conditions are met:
1. Get rid of death
2. Get rid of our need for food and land in a world with limited rescources
3. Ban natural disasters of all kinds
4. Only set rules if you're willing to follow them yourself (murder is a sin but you kill innocent people all the time)
5. Get rid of all birth defects and disease
6. Undo that whole tower of babel multiple language thing
7. Update the Bible for goodness sakes
God did not create us because he needed us. He created us so he gets more glory, which he immensely enjoys.
Also, God knows you don't love him, because you are imperfect whereas he is perfect.
Nice try, setting ultimatums.
But seriously, enough with theology I don't really believe. I mean, I'm gay for crying out loud.
to Tinted Fragipan: this must be awful for you... but you're not going to hell. I'll burn before you do.
^ Me too.
I guess if you're omnipotent you can't help but have a superiority complex.
[ORIGINAL POSTER AGAIN]
Ok, my reasons for believing that homosexuality is wrong are not just bible based. I generally live my life by what I feel is right and good, and true, and generally this feeling is right. For instance, I feel that killing someone is not right and I feel that giving someone without things something you have too much of is good. Perhaps I was raised to believe this, but I should like to think the basic thought process of it was ingrained.
I feel that homosexuality is wrong. Just like, I think, most of you inherently do. If you feel something is wrong, most likely, it is. Unless we are all wrong. Unless our deepest feelings of what is "right" is actually, wrong, which could in itself turn the world upsidedown.
In any case. The other reason I think it is wrong is because it is unnatural. I realize that sex isnt' just for reproduction, but only an idiot would say that humans as a race do not need to reproduce. It's natural. It's the way things go, the way of nature, or life on this planet. Animals have sex, make babies, and go on with their lives.
I AM NOT BY ANY MEANS SUGGESTING THAT THE ONLY POINT OF SEX IS TO REPRODUCE. However, that is kind of a "good side effect", if you will, of having sex. So....gays?
Merriam Webster's defines sexual intercourse as:
sexual intercourse
n : the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man's penis is inserted into the woman's vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur
hmm. Please tell me how that works for gays. If you want to tell me people are gay, ok, fine. Maybe they're gay, they feel attracted to members of the same sex. If you want to tell me that it's ok, and they're normal and can have families and be just like hetero families in society...now there we have a problem.
I am not gay, so I really don't know what it's like, but I equate it to having add, or ocd, or anorexia, or something like this. Is it biological? Environmental? No one really knows. However, we don't have people with ocd, untreated, living with families in little suburban neighborhoods trying to balance ocd and a normal life. No, they have psychotherapy and counseling so that they can get over their issue and live "normal lives". Maybe this is wrong, to stomp out their ocd, or whatever. But we do. It would make it nearly impossible to have a pleasant life any other way.
Why does everyone see it differently for gays? Maybe it's biological/environmental that some people are attracted to people of the same sex. So, psychotherapy, and working on overcoming their deviation from most humans. And this is where people get mad-saying that b/c they're different, they must change to be "normal". But let me ask you, what do we do for add kids? Do we create "add" schools that do nothing but run around on a track allday and constant activity? No. We give them medicine and stick them in normal school. Or, we dont' give them medecine and they learn to deal with what life has thrown their way, and succeed in school anyway.
Why is homosexuality different? If everyone's so adamant that it's NOT A CHOICE, then it's similar to add, right? Not a choice. genetic/environmental. I'd really like to hear why homosexuality is so different from other issues people deal with all the time.
Also. There is a difference between having morals (knowing what is right and wrong) and judging specific individuals (for the poster who quoted "Judge not, lest ye be judged" from the bible.
I do not hate, discriminate against, or preach to homosexuals. I simply let it be known that I believe that it's wrong. That's my freedom of speech. That's not beating anyone up.
LIVE & LET LIVE
(for Christ's sake)
We need more people to be gay so we have less babies and thereby don't overpopulate the earth, cause the way we're going we're pretty much fucked.
Okay so that was sort of a joke.
But sir, when you say the definition is ____, you forgot the other definitions. Basically most dictionaries describe contact of the genitals among one of their defitions, so that would keep gay sex included.
But I'm really starting to hate these analogies between gay people and add, ocd, blind, retarted, or otherwise "messed up" people as we tend to think of them. Sure there's a difference, but it's not a damaging difference. Some ADD kids cannot function in the society that we have set up, if you'd like to invest in meshing extreme ADD kids with our society, go right ahead, we just currently find it easier to drug them.
Now, if gay people were always having sex in the workplace and weren't getting anything done, well, that might be cause for something to be done...except, that would also apply to straight people always having sex. The truth is, we don't medicate of alot of people. Some people with ADD work just fine off of drugs. I know a person with an exreme brain disorder (which has dyslexia, bi polar, etc. as side affects) and she isn't on drugs at all and she's very normal.
Drugs are not meant to correct things that are "wrong" from a moral standpoint, they're meant to correct things that mess with our society because it seems the most humane thing we can do at this time.
Sadly enough, many christians have tried your method of "fixing gays," and to no avail.
So basically, say you don't agree with what they do, say it's a sin, say they're going to hell, you may be right, but don't start talking like they're inferior to you because other than the fact that they have a different sexual orientation, they're just another person.
Oh yeah, interesting little tidbit. A study in the NY Times discovered there is a likelihood that while women can be bisexual, guys can't. They did put the disclaimer that they didn't have such a huge test group nor enough tests to truly universely apply this, BUT it is kind of interesting.
Argh, I hate posting multiple times. But wow, the original poster just really gets on my nerves. It's a good thing I don't know who it is.
In response to their latest comment:
1. I feel that homosexuality is wrong. Just like, I think, most of you inherently do. If you feel something is wrong, most likely, it is. Unless we are all wrong.
You went from most of "us" being wrong to all of "us" being wrong. Um, which is it? There are a lot of warped people in society (rapists, pedophiles, murders, etc). I don't think grouping all of humanity minus those who don't think homosexually is wrong is good way to do things.
2. If by "unnatural" you mean "not found in nature" then that's scientifically not true because homosexuality has been found in other animals besides human beings. There are gay penguins, monkeys, and frogs. Probably a lot of others, but none I remember/know off the top of my head. Also, there are a small number of animals that don't "have sex, make babies, and go on with their lives" because they don't live past the "have sex" part. The male praying mantis come to mind.
3. Taking things from you point of view: natural = good, unnatural = bad. With that in mind, there are a lot of natural things that are bad. Disease, natural disasters (floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc) that are bad.
4. There are a lot of human who shouldn't reproduce. Based on Darwinism, the whole "survival of the fittest" thing, there are so many humans whose genes shouldn't survive to the next generation. As a race, humans shouldn't stop producing, but they should slow down. At the rate we're going through resources, and overpopulating the planet in terms of just space and quality of life issues, there are too many people. Considering that the rate of growth for populations is exponential, there need to be some people who don't reproduce. What if GLBTs (well, maybe not the Bs), are one of nature's ways of trying to correct the human overpopulation problem?
5. If babies are a "good side effect" of sex, that doesn't mean they're always there. If every time two people had sex, there was a baby as a "good side effect" we'd have an even worse overpopulation problem. Haven't you taken freshman bio yet?
6. And to further than, side effects aren't an always type of thing. If you got every side effect listed on the warnings list of a medication, you probably wouldn't take the medication.
7. I like that you quote the dictionary. Unfortunately you forget to account for the fact that the dictionary is a social, intellectual, and political device that reduces everything down to an "acceptable" meaning. The social aspect is especially seen in the fact that it includes slang.
8. The dictionary you quoted was Merriam-Webster, not Oxford. Oxford is considered the definitive authority on the meanings of words. That's just a problem with your source, not the argument.
9. While yes, that's "sexual intercourse," how do you explain things like anal sex, oral sex, masturbation, bestiality, fisting, fetishes, and the myriad of other "perversions" that relate to noncoitus acts? (I suggest a trip to Wikipedia for the extended list, but only to those not faint of heart or mind. Search phrases "sexual intercourse" "paraphilia" "BDSM" just as starting points.)
10. I'm actually borderline OCD, and I live a fairly normal life. Yes I obsess about things constantly and have my weird freakish moments, but I'm coping fairly well. I don't think I live in a suburb, maybe the outskirts of Raleigh, but not the suburbs. I don't go to psychotherapy or take medication for it. I just live my life and deal with it. While I complain constantly about things, I do live a fairly "pleasant" life; I'm happy often enough. Especially when I disregard what other people think and do as I please. It's not about stomping it out, it's learning to deal with things and moderate. It's realizing I can't control everything about my surroundings and not being paralized by that fact. Honestly, I doubt being OCD is anything like being gay. OCD is crippling in extreme cases because the person can mentally or physically cope with it - the people with germ worries wear the skin off their bodies. It's totally self-contained. Homosexuality is crippling in a social sense because the only time it's a problem is when social pressures are applied. As pertains to sexuality, I would think OCD is more comparable to hypersexuality in both the physical and mental aspects of both disorders.
For further reading against the "unnatural" argument, here's an article. Obviously biased:
http://www.indegayforum.org/authors/corvino/corvino3d.html
And for the Wiki thing:
http://wikipedia.org/
wow. I love this argument.
So many people on both sides have pissed me off, I don't know what to say.
But the argument about God making us perfect does raise some interesting points. For instance, why would he give males a foreskin if we were later commanded to cut it off?
Further still, we have seen throughout the Jewish Bible that God is not necessarily perfect. There is a adage in Judaism about the goodness of God. And that is, God cannot be Good, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. If He were all three, there would of course be no suffering in this world.
I forgot how exactly I was gonna tie that in to homosexuality, but the point is, this argument is moot anyway. Gay people are gonna stay gay, and straight people are gonna stay straight. So what the hell is this argument about anyway?!
listen, god IS perfect, but we are not and because we are not perfect, we cannot even fathom the concept of what being truly perfect would be like and cannot fathom that god is perfect. if god were to solve all of those little or enormous social ills, he would be taking away one of the most precious things we have: free will. humanity, i believe will as a whole obtain perfection when we can all be self governing and responsible on an individual scale, so why not work on yourself before you start judging others? and besides, i start from the point of view that i have all of eternity to become perfect, that earth is just the starting place. and all those people that are hurt will be loved by god and will have eternity to perfect themselves as well. i don't care about gays. i feel god is a father who loves everyone, regardless of sexuality or anything else. what matters is not sexuality but how you live your life. if you disregard sexuality you will find that gays and straights are just as moral or immoral as the other. geez, does it really matter?
Guys, I'm pretty sure this argument will never be resolved. Some people don't believe in god, some are hardcore Christians. If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, I'm pretty sure there's nothing anyone could say to change your mind.
"One of us won't last the night.
Between you and me, it's no surprise.
There's two of us, both can't be right.
Neither will move till it's over.
I'm the center of attention in the walls inside my head, and no one will ever know it if I keep my mouth shut tight."-Center of Attention by Guster
I know I've posted on this issue, but I've decided to post this in light of how hopeless this debate is.
How do you guys know that spreading homosexuality isn't part of God's divine plan? Surely He doesn't think we should be overpopulated and starving, and compared to mass genocide of one type or another this is really a great way to get to zero population growth.
The point is you can't know what God intends.
Heather it offends me that you call masturbation one of the "myriad of perversions."
I think the fact that she put "perversions" in sarcasm quotes makes it all okay.
I hereby declare this topic beaten to death. For anyone else that posts here, you shall feel my burning wrath.
Burn me.
Consider yourself burninated.
Burninate them!
And me. And me. (chorus)
And after the burninating, the oral sex!
... Well, I could post a bit longer.
But I won't.
hmm, I hope those sarcasm quotes weren't applying to all of them...bestiality...okay...I won't go there.
What?
Guys can like guys and be accepted for it, why can't you respect a person's crush on their puppy?
Gosh, hypocrites.
/sarcasm
because they're PEOPLE. you're having sex with a human, male or female, not an animal. even if you're gay, you're still human, even if you deviate from the norm in terms of sexuality.
But it doesn't matter if it's not about procreation, right? If it feels good do it?
I'm not even sure what it is you guys are discussing anymore. Seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Some of you I cant tell which side you're on. Just give it a rest...you're never going to concede.
some of us support homosexuality, some of us don't. The end.
Though i honor your heated discussion and respect how much you care about this topic.
please just get this thing off the front page, already...
it's so very close.
And now its off.
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